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"id": "https://infosec.exchange/users/ErikvanStraten/statuses/112722169292055008",
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"published": "2024-07-03T10:50:03Z",
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"content": "<p>Yesterday Brian Krebs ( <span class=\"h-card\" translate=\"no\"><a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/@briankrebs\" class=\"u-url mention\">@<span>briankrebs</span></a></span> ) wrote in [1] about an organization that chases people who watch and/or share online CSAM (Child Sexual Abuse Material), *without* (that organization) knowing whether those people actually abuse children *themselves* (physically and/or online).</p><p>I very much appreciate and admire Brian's work. Also, reshared CSAM *does* hurt some kids, albeit indirectly.</p><p>RISKS<br />However, in my opinion, as security professionals we should prioritize measures based on carefully evaluated risks while leaving out emotions and taboos. Our goal should be to protect children and their rights - by implementing appropriate and proportional measures to minimize excessive child suffering.</p><p>IMPACT<br />I'm not a psychologist, but I can try to put matters in a less emotional and more objective perspective by enumerating experiences that probably hurt (physically and/or mentally) kids most. I came up with this (surely incomplete) list:</p><p>• Being severely bullied or harassed, having no friends<br />• Hating themselves, thinking they're ugly or otherwise inferior<br />• Being seriously ill in hospital<br />• Being different, as in a wheelchair<br />• Being discriminated, e.g. by skin color, religion<br />• LGBTQ+ feelings not accepted by their environment<br />• Slavery, forced to work<br />• Denied normal access to education<br />• Denied the right to play, have fun, dance, listen to music of their choice, etc.<br />• Experiencing extreme poverty in between (seemingly) wealthy kids (or watching them on e.g. TikTok) <br />• Mistreatment or neglect by parents<br />• Being abused (e.g. sexually - physically and/or online)<br />• Being extorted (possibly using CSAM)<br />• Having arguing, fighting and devorcing parents<br />• Having a parent sent to jail (possibly for watching CSAM)<br />• Experiencing natural disasters, such as earthquakes, floods an fires<br />• Having their house bombed, losing limbs, having to flee, being chased, becoming a refugee<br />• Witnessing your parents or siblings being killed or get raped<br />• Experiencing starvation, insufficient clean water and lack of medical treatment</p><p>HYPOCRISY<br />(W.r.t. the last three points: *we*, Americans and Dutch people -among citizens of other western countries-, are supplying Israel with weapons and "moral" support for what the IDF does in Gaza and how Israeli citizens behave in the Westbank. They've killed more than 15.000 children in less than a year, and are effectively severily torturing all surviving Gazan children as we speak).</p><p>IT'S NOT CSAM<br />————————————————————<br />People watching or sharing CSAM are *NOT* children's biggest nightmare.<br />————————————————————</p><p>EXCEPTION<br />One exception is if a child is depicted in specific CSAM (not necessarily sexually oriented, such as "nude pics" that may have been made voluntarily) *AND* that child is aware that their CSAM is being shared and watched.</p><p>NAIVE<br />However, it is *extremely* naive to believe that hunting CSAM watchers and sharers will ever fully solve *that* problem. A problem that is exacerbated by nudity taboos (created by conservative people, and increasing; we were all born naked). And by children being sexually educated too late in their lives, and by kids who fear discussing "weird things" with their parents, relatives, teachers or friends. Or parents simply being "too busy" to even pay attention to their kids, ignoring their signals.</p><p>DIY<br />Also note that many teens voluntarily share nude pics or even sexual video's of themselves. Are they to be treated the same way as other sharers of CSAM?</p><p>LAW ENFORCEMENT<br />Another major problem is that, in many countries, there are insufficient people to track down, prosecute and punish actual *committers* of (sexual) child abuse. The number of law officers chasing *them* will decrease if part of them start hunting watchers and sharers of CSAM. That's fighting symptoms, not root causes.</p><p>REPAIR<br />In addition, once we've "caught" them: can they be "cured"? Are there enough "doctors" avaliable who are capable of doing that? Will putting them in jail help? How will they behave once free again, after they were fired, their wife devorced them and their kids do not want to see dad anymore?</p><p>POLARIZATION<br />In my opinion, the entire CSAM discussion is part of a "devide and conquer" tactic of extremist and polarizing politicians (and/or corrupt journalists) who state that a specific group, such as refugees, migrants, Muslims (Sunnis vs. Shias), Christians, Jews, Palestinians, Chinese people and/or CSAM watchers etc. are your biggest enemy and the cause of ALL of your problems; "attack and jail them, or kill to fix!".</p><p>CHILD RAPISTS<br />Note: most people who watch porn (even extreme), or watch violent movies/play violent games, do *NOT* become rapists or mass murderers. I see no reason why the same would not apply to CSAM watchers. Note that while the opposite may be true (mass murderers usually like watching violence, rapists typically enjoy extreme porn and child abusers will probably possess and watch CSAM) does not change my assumption or opinion.</p><p>FANTASIES<br />Unfortunately many (if not most) people occasionaly have "weird" fantasies. We'd better start accepting, and perhaps discussing, our human imperfections and what to do about them (and in which cases they should be considered unaccepable), instead of denying their existence. We can probably improve things by better educating people about the *actual* harm that is inflicted to directly or indirectly involved victims. In fact, I believe that way too many people are insufficiently aware of the consequences of their "joy".</p><p>*YOU AND I* SEVERELY HURT KIDS<br />Last but not least, huge numbers of children around the world are inhumanely suffering from harm inflicted by ADULTS - like (or including) YOU AND ME. Is chasing CSAM watchers/sharers the best thing we can do to protect children?</p><p>[1] <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/@briankrebs/112719602453468572\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow noopener noreferrer\" translate=\"no\"><span class=\"invisible\">https://</span><span class=\"ellipsis\">infosec.exchange/@briankrebs/1</span><span class=\"invisible\">12719602453468572</span></a> </p><p><a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSAM\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>CSAM</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Kids\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Kids</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/NoKidding\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>NoKidding</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildRights\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildRights</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildrenRights\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildrenRights</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildrensRights\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildrensRights</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildAbuse\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildAbuse</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChatControl\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChatControl</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSS\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>CSS</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ClientSideScanning\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ClientSideScanning</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildPorn\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildPorn</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/DevideAndConquer\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>DevideAndConquer</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Power\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Power</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Politics\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Politics</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Politicians\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Politicians</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Refugees\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Refugees</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Migrants\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Migrants</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Polarization\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Polarization</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Polarisation\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Polarisation</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Emotions\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Emotions</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Nudity\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Nudity</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Fantasies\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Fantasies</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Parents\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Parents</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Conservatism\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Conservatism</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Gaza\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Gaza</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/GazaGenocide\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>GazaGenocide</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Genocide\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Genocide</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Starvation\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Starvation</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Water\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Water</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Medication\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Medication</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/MedicalCare\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>MedicalCare</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Atrocities\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Atrocities</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Inhumane\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Inhumane</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Suffering\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Suffering</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/UN\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>UN</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ICJ\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ICJ</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ICC\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ICC</span></a></p>",
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"en": "<p>Yesterday Brian Krebs ( <span class=\"h-card\" translate=\"no\"><a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/@briankrebs\" class=\"u-url mention\">@<span>briankrebs</span></a></span> ) wrote in [1] about an organization that chases people who watch and/or share online CSAM (Child Sexual Abuse Material), *without* (that organization) knowing whether those people actually abuse children *themselves* (physically and/or online).</p><p>I very much appreciate and admire Brian's work. Also, reshared CSAM *does* hurt some kids, albeit indirectly.</p><p>RISKS<br />However, in my opinion, as security professionals we should prioritize measures based on carefully evaluated risks while leaving out emotions and taboos. Our goal should be to protect children and their rights - by implementing appropriate and proportional measures to minimize excessive child suffering.</p><p>IMPACT<br />I'm not a psychologist, but I can try to put matters in a less emotional and more objective perspective by enumerating experiences that probably hurt (physically and/or mentally) kids most. I came up with this (surely incomplete) list:</p><p>• Being severely bullied or harassed, having no friends<br />• Hating themselves, thinking they're ugly or otherwise inferior<br />• Being seriously ill in hospital<br />• Being different, as in a wheelchair<br />• Being discriminated, e.g. by skin color, religion<br />• LGBTQ+ feelings not accepted by their environment<br />• Slavery, forced to work<br />• Denied normal access to education<br />• Denied the right to play, have fun, dance, listen to music of their choice, etc.<br />• Experiencing extreme poverty in between (seemingly) wealthy kids (or watching them on e.g. TikTok) <br />• Mistreatment or neglect by parents<br />• Being abused (e.g. sexually - physically and/or online)<br />• Being extorted (possibly using CSAM)<br />• Having arguing, fighting and devorcing parents<br />• Having a parent sent to jail (possibly for watching CSAM)<br />• Experiencing natural disasters, such as earthquakes, floods an fires<br />• Having their house bombed, losing limbs, having to flee, being chased, becoming a refugee<br />• Witnessing your parents or siblings being killed or get raped<br />• Experiencing starvation, insufficient clean water and lack of medical treatment</p><p>HYPOCRISY<br />(W.r.t. the last three points: *we*, Americans and Dutch people -among citizens of other western countries-, are supplying Israel with weapons and "moral" support for what the IDF does in Gaza and how Israeli citizens behave in the Westbank. They've killed more than 15.000 children in less than a year, and are effectively severily torturing all surviving Gazan children as we speak).</p><p>IT'S NOT CSAM<br />————————————————————<br />People watching or sharing CSAM are *NOT* children's biggest nightmare.<br />————————————————————</p><p>EXCEPTION<br />One exception is if a child is depicted in specific CSAM (not necessarily sexually oriented, such as "nude pics" that may have been made voluntarily) *AND* that child is aware that their CSAM is being shared and watched.</p><p>NAIVE<br />However, it is *extremely* naive to believe that hunting CSAM watchers and sharers will ever fully solve *that* problem. A problem that is exacerbated by nudity taboos (created by conservative people, and increasing; we were all born naked). And by children being sexually educated too late in their lives, and by kids who fear discussing "weird things" with their parents, relatives, teachers or friends. Or parents simply being "too busy" to even pay attention to their kids, ignoring their signals.</p><p>DIY<br />Also note that many teens voluntarily share nude pics or even sexual video's of themselves. Are they to be treated the same way as other sharers of CSAM?</p><p>LAW ENFORCEMENT<br />Another major problem is that, in many countries, there are insufficient people to track down, prosecute and punish actual *committers* of (sexual) child abuse. The number of law officers chasing *them* will decrease if part of them start hunting watchers and sharers of CSAM. That's fighting symptoms, not root causes.</p><p>REPAIR<br />In addition, once we've "caught" them: can they be "cured"? Are there enough "doctors" avaliable who are capable of doing that? Will putting them in jail help? How will they behave once free again, after they were fired, their wife devorced them and their kids do not want to see dad anymore?</p><p>POLARIZATION<br />In my opinion, the entire CSAM discussion is part of a "devide and conquer" tactic of extremist and polarizing politicians (and/or corrupt journalists) who state that a specific group, such as refugees, migrants, Muslims (Sunnis vs. Shias), Christians, Jews, Palestinians, Chinese people and/or CSAM watchers etc. are your biggest enemy and the cause of ALL of your problems; "attack and jail them, or kill to fix!".</p><p>CHILD RAPISTS<br />Note: most people who watch porn (even extreme), or watch violent movies/play violent games, do *NOT* become rapists or mass murderers. I see no reason why the same would not apply to CSAM watchers. Note that while the opposite may be true (mass murderers usually like watching violence, rapists typically enjoy extreme porn and child abusers will probably possess and watch CSAM) does not change my assumption or opinion.</p><p>FANTASIES<br />Unfortunately many (if not most) people occasionaly have "weird" fantasies. We'd better start accepting, and perhaps discussing, our human imperfections and what to do about them (and in which cases they should be considered unaccepable), instead of denying their existence. We can probably improve things by better educating people about the *actual* harm that is inflicted to directly or indirectly involved victims. In fact, I believe that way too many people are insufficiently aware of the consequences of their "joy".</p><p>*YOU AND I* SEVERELY HURT KIDS<br />Last but not least, huge numbers of children around the world are inhumanely suffering from harm inflicted by ADULTS - like (or including) YOU AND ME. Is chasing CSAM watchers/sharers the best thing we can do to protect children?</p><p>[1] <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/@briankrebs/112719602453468572\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow noopener noreferrer\" translate=\"no\"><span class=\"invisible\">https://</span><span class=\"ellipsis\">infosec.exchange/@briankrebs/1</span><span class=\"invisible\">12719602453468572</span></a> </p><p><a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSAM\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>CSAM</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Kids\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Kids</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/NoKidding\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>NoKidding</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildRights\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildRights</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildrenRights\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildrenRights</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildrensRights\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildrensRights</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildAbuse\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildAbuse</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChatControl\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChatControl</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSS\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>CSS</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ClientSideScanning\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ClientSideScanning</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChildPorn\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ChildPorn</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/DevideAndConquer\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>DevideAndConquer</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Power\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Power</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Politics\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Politics</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Politicians\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Politicians</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Refugees\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Refugees</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Migrants\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Migrants</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Polarization\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Polarization</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Polarisation\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Polarisation</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Emotions\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Emotions</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Nudity\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Nudity</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Fantasies\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Fantasies</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Parents\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Parents</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Conservatism\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Conservatism</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Gaza\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Gaza</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/GazaGenocide\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>GazaGenocide</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Genocide\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Genocide</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Starvation\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Starvation</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Water\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Water</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Medication\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Medication</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/MedicalCare\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>MedicalCare</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Atrocities\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Atrocities</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Inhumane\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Inhumane</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/Suffering\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>Suffering</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/UN\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>UN</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ICJ\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ICJ</span></a> <a href=\"https://infosec.exchange/tags/ICC\" class=\"mention hashtag\" rel=\"tag\">#<span>ICC</span></a></p>"
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